Z-Temp Forum

Other => RaftAway => Topic started by: Julia Truchsess on March 02, 2017, 09:34:55 PM

Title: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: Julia Truchsess on March 02, 2017, 09:34:55 PM
Adds speed increase as well as decrease, some fixes for Z-Suiteā„¢ 1.8.x compatibility.

http://www.z-temp.co/Downloads/RaftAway.zip
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 03, 2017, 11:44:17 AM
This was originally planned as test version to check if the speedup is beneficial. So potential users should keep in mind that this feature is more or less untested.

One thing that I forgot to mention in the RTF (and the included changelog) is that v1.1.3 will now modify the printing time by dividing by the speed multiplier.
Like a 2h job printed with 50% should now be displayed as 4h job. Note that while this might be somewhat correct for slowing down, it might be inaccurate when speeding up.
As the speedup functions limits the movement speed to 8000mm/min and the "normal" quality mode on the m200 uses speeds that high, these limitations are not considered.
So 125% speed with a 2h job will result in 1h 36min (120/125*100 = 96), no matter if some movement speeds are limited or not.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 05, 2017, 05:36:02 AM
I printed the new extruder cover, the larger part, at 125% in normal mode @ 0.19 layer. 

Print is so clean, I need to print a second one at normal speed to see what the difference is... if any.

Also, if the initial z-axis touch off is impacted by speed change (z-axis movement), might want to exclude it

Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 05, 2017, 05:54:53 AM
The height sensing is done in firmware, so it's not influenced by ZCode patches.
Note that in "normal" quality mode, most jumps already use the maximum speed, so they are not accelerated.
All other (printing) movement should have been 25% faster, so some additional ringing etc. is expected.
Then again, if the print is still clean, this speedup feature doesn't seem so pointless after all.
Have you checked if the printing time was decreased compared to the original Z-Suite estimation?
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 05, 2017, 06:01:26 AM
The height sensing is done in firmware, so it's not influenced by ZCode patches.
Note that in "normal" quality mode, most jumps already use the maximum speed, so they are not accelerated.
All other (printing) movement should have been 25% faster, so some additional ringing etc. is expected.
Then again, if the print is still clean, this speedup feature doesn't seem so pointless after all.
Have you checked if the printing time was decreased compared to the original Z-Suite estimation?

Ok that's good to hear the height sensing is in firmware, I was suspecting that but wasn't sure so a little bit nerve racking.

I'm going to print 2 more sets, one at normal speed and one at normal +25% and externally time both of them.

The ringing is not bad, actually can't tell the difference without something to compare against, lettering clean and clearly readable. There was some minor stringing and and maybe something going on the seam... but again need to compare, would have figured normal part.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 05, 2017, 04:38:49 PM
Normal speed: 141 minutes
Normal +25%:  122 minutes
+- 1 minute.

(http://i.imgur.com/ed9xqxU.jpg?3)

higher res http://i.imgur.com/ed9xqxU.jpg?1

Stringing identical, seams are identical. Minor increase in ringing at lettering, but not enough to be clearly visible.
If I remember right, infill structure quality seemed not as good (but works). The rafts, I mixed up and can't tell a difference.

So kinda looks like can go further than the '+25%' setting, especially perimeters and maybe raft.

Also thanks for your work
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: Julia Truchsess on March 05, 2017, 07:09:04 PM
Nice! I assume this is ABS - I'm skeptical that PLA can be pushed to these speeds but I'd be happy to be proved wrong.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 05, 2017, 08:11:12 PM
Yes Z-ABS @ '0.19' um, normal print speed, smart bridge off, everything else default except '+25%' speed in raftaway. Also just measured a few random points, all within a few thou of reference print.

I usually print at 0.14 and 0.09, so I'm interested to see what happens there. Assuming same result, big time saver.

I have no experience with PLA.  I'm thinking with z-glass there will be problems though, due to pressure (I have serious problems with it by default, I'm hoping slowing down feed will make it so I can print it reliably).
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: Julia Truchsess on March 05, 2017, 08:27:53 PM
Yes, slowing down the print speed to 50-75% makes printing a lot of "balky" materials like PLA and flexibles possible and/or easier. Also seems to greatly improve the surface finish of PLA prints. The slowdown is particularly effective with certain layers of the raft, which call for high extrusion rates, and support which normally goes too fast for PLA or flex to keep up with.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: hackerdaz on March 06, 2017, 04:16:15 AM
I can also confirm that there is no noticeable surface quality change after printing the same part with a printing speed increased 125%. The only observed difference is a weight change of 3%. The part with normal printing speed had a weight of 12.8gr, whereas the speedy part weighted 13.4gr. ABS was used for both parts.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 06, 2017, 12:46:45 PM
I must admit that I'm surprised to hear that the increase in speed also increased the weight. Honestly, I'd have expected the opposite.
Like I found it plausible to assume that the higher speed would lead to a certain amount of under-extrusion in infill.
Then again, what do I know about 3D printing ;) ?
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 06, 2017, 03:21:40 PM
I measured 17.9285g (reference), 17.9233g (+25), 17.8598g (+25).
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: hackerdaz on March 07, 2017, 05:38:05 AM
I measured 17.9285g (reference), 17.9233g (+25), 17.8598g (+25).

It seems that it is part dependent. The one that I have printed, has very limited infill. What about yours?
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 07, 2017, 07:02:57 AM
I measured 17.9285g (reference), 17.9233g (+25), 17.8598g (+25).

It seems that it is part dependent. The one that I have printed, has very limited infill. What about yours?

I had low infill set, I may have observed inflll quality degrade somewhat (but really would have to watch again, i normally print in high quality).  It might be good to separate raft, perimeter, infill, support %speed from each other... I think perimeter and possibly raft possibly can be printed even faster.

On the part weight, would have to print a series of reference prints to get a baseline on variance of normal parts to compare against. Is it strength you're worried about? I checked dimensions and they were same.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: hackerdaz on March 07, 2017, 09:10:48 AM
Time measurements for two identical parts:

Normal speed estimated (Z-suite): 186min
Normal speed real: 218min

+25 speed estimated: 149min
+25 speed real: 198min

Gain: 20 min ~10% overall

There is no visible quality change of the perimeters. Thus, they can be printed using a higher speed than +25%. On the other hand, some minor issues during infill creation.
I think that in order to become a countable option, a speed jump up to 150% should be an option.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 07, 2017, 12:53:42 PM
Increasing the maximum to 150% is a piece of cake. I'm just a bit concerned that some fast infills will suffer.
Having separate speed factors for infill, contour, raft is possible in theory but a bit more complicated and risky (letting aside that the GUI is starting to get messy).
Problem is that ZCode has a separate command for feedrate so it's not part of the actual movement/printing command (which is the case for G-Code).
So to check which area a feedrate command will affect, I'd need to parse at least one further command (sometimes maybe even two or so) which my current design doesn't allow.
It's not like I couldn't change the design, but it's work (*meh*) and there's always the chance of collateral damage.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: Julia Truchsess on March 07, 2017, 02:37:15 PM
It's not like I couldn't change the design, but it's work (*meh*) and there's always the chance of collateral damage.

And as you mentioned some posts back, the endless feature creep is straying from the concept of a "simple tool to allow raftless printing", not to mention the concept of the M200 as a more or less "turnkey" printer.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 07, 2017, 04:07:13 PM
We scrapped the idea of simplicity a while ago, didn't we ;) ?
I guess I shouldn't propose the fan speed graph then or should I?
Anyway, I guess the current speed down/up is good enough for most purposes.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: Julia Truchsess on March 07, 2017, 04:19:33 PM
It's still pretty simple, with four parameters, one of which is a boolean. All of its features are consistent with the company's mission statement of "Expanded Materials Capability". The speed reduction feature is critical to printing flexible filament, and since we already have that parameter, I don't mind its range being extended into the plus side if people want to play with higher speeds. Adding more controls just to tweak performance at higher speeds, however, is straying from the intent.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 07, 2017, 06:21:24 PM
Separate speeds for each component should be able to be applied both ways (+ or -), so probably expands range of materials printable materials, plus some materials have better mechanical properties when printed with higher feed rates.  But also I understand deadbeef is one person, too much stuff going on likely not good.

edit - I took a closer look at the infill and it doesn't look too bad. The part of the print I watched before was on a sloped part and I think made it look worse than normal. Ill make an infill test piece with larger fill area and check difference.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: Julia Truchsess on March 07, 2017, 10:19:08 PM
I've been printing with slightly gap-py infill and support now for 2 years, first with PLA and the Zortrax hot ends, then much improved but still not always perfect with the ZT-HE. It's never been a problem in the final parts if walls and tops/bottoms print ok, but now with the slow-down feature it can be made much more nearly perfect if one so desires.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 08, 2017, 12:25:17 AM
Awesome, I want to try it on z-glass. Also z-pcabs sometimes comes out under-filled, so if slowing down helps to fill, gotta try it. Still have to order a zt-he.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: hackerdaz on March 08, 2017, 06:06:49 AM
In general, software development has not met my expectations until now (I'm not referring to RaftAway). Hardware is here but there are options such as variable layer thickness as well as variable printing speed that could significantly reduce printing time, without reducing printing quality. Have you seen these options somewhere? Nope.
Regarding RaftAway, it is a tool that will be used by advanced users. With that in mind, changing the GUI or putting extra inputs will not cause a disturbance. I can understand though that this is a job done by one person that I have to congratulate for his effort. But since is has been released, it is quite understandable that we (the users) would like to test more options. We are here to help in any way we can.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on March 08, 2017, 01:33:21 PM
As a compromise: I should be relatively easy to automatically exclude the Raft from speedup. Maybe only the first raft layer. Have to think about that.
Of course that will eat up another bit of the potential speedup.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 11, 2017, 03:34:42 AM
From left to right. 100%, 125%, 150%, 225%, 337.5%
http://imgur.com/5pFH4wZ

Ringing but part still accurate at flats.... true "draft" part?
Time to complete at 337.5%, 95 minutes (original part 144 minutes)

Also, I was mistaken on infill, as I was viewing it on a slant part of the part, so it looked bad but really wasn't... the infill stayed fine:
Infill at 337.5%
http://imgur.com/skRxUTQ

225% noticed slight increase in work required to remove raft, and again at 337.5% However, both were removable.

Everything seemed ok except for the raft, at 225% and 337.5%, the extruder motor doesn't have the torque to extrude the material against the plate on first 1-2 layers, so it slips (but still forms raft ok). Once bridging portion of raft starts it's fine. Also the nozzle normally drags across surface to melt it flat, it gets a little too fast to do that and you hear some "thumping", it's not bad though.

For supports and infill, the firmware seems to self limit speeds (probably because limit on extrusion rate or something), meaning it seems no matter how fast one scales the motion, it doesn't seem to cause an issue (at least for z-abs at .2 um) for support and infill.
I think this means there maybe no need speed for separate settings for supports and infill as the firmware appears to automatically and conveniently limit. I think if the raft speed was addressed, could go beyond. Parts like vases that have no infill and smooth curvatures might speed up tremendously.

I think it would be nice to have some sort of adjustment for raft speed and a separate adjustment for the rest of the print (the other adjustments [infill, bridges] do not seem to be needed as the firmware appears to automatically and conveniently limit).
Slower raft speed should allow for improved print-ability with thicker filaments (example, part of my issue with z-glass... motor slips on raft at default speeds across multiple machines.. too much pressure...probably an issue with a lot of filled filaments).
Faster raft speed saves a large portion of the total print time, especially for prints that are large xy.

I did try an insane 500-750% speedup with 400um layer height, idea was to see what happens at extreme. Most of the part actually formed ok, just some voids, as the extruder lacked torque.
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: hackerdaz on March 11, 2017, 12:51:57 PM
From left to right. 100%, 125%, 150%, 225%, 337.5%
http://imgur.com/5pFH4wZ

I think I've lost something? How did you manage to overcome the speed restriction in RaftAway (>+25%)?
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: ChunkyPastaSauce on March 11, 2017, 05:15:19 PM
Repeat processing, for example  1.25*1.25*1.25 = ~200%
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: hackerdaz on March 11, 2017, 05:49:46 PM
Well done!
Title: Re: v1.1.3a Released
Post by: Julia Truchsess on March 11, 2017, 08:25:35 PM
Well done!

LOL!